1. Cite some variations in the Loathly Lady fabula across the three tales in your Reader. Focus on the conditions by which the lady is either beautiful or ugly, and the actions of the knight/king/"hero"...
2. The Wife of Bath's Tale is considered by some critics to indicate that Chaucer may have been a feminist. Why might they believe this? Do you agree? Remember to cite evidence from the text or some other source.
3.Hahn's essay (see critical reader)on The Wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnelleidentifies the motif of the loathly lady, but arguesit has a different purpose than asserting the feminine. What does he think the function of the story is?
4. In the context of Elizabethan and Jacobean sonnets, how can we define "conceits"?
5. Discuss what you think is the most striking or outrageous example.
6. What does Revard (1997) suggest about the relationship between language, sex, power and transgression in the English Renaissance?
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ReplyDeleteThe Wife of Baths Tale is considered by some critics to indicate that Chaucer may have been a feminist. Why might they believe this? Do you agree? Remember to cite evidence from the text or some other source.
ReplyDeleteWhile reading the story I can see some aspects of femininity. The story seems to center around females and the affect they have on the main character, a male. First of all the story is set in King Arthur’s court but his queen seems to be running things, along with her court ladies ‘And gave him to the queen, all at her will, To choose whether she would him save or put to death’ it also goes on to say ‘Very many a noble wife, and many a maid, And many a widow, because they are wise, The queen herself sitting as a justice’.
While the main character, a male ‘a lusty bachelor’ is searching for the answer to the Queens life or death question ‘What thing is it that women most desire’, by asking ladies all over the land, the answers seem to be in favor of what any women today would want ‘we love best to be free and do just as we please’. Chaucer’s portrayal of the male character is also quite comedic, mockery ‘under his long hair, two ass’s ears, growing upon his head’ another dominant female, his wife, exposes this secret of his.
Finally I feel the most important aspect of feminism seen in the story is the knight’s answer to the queen’s question ‘Women desire to have sovereignty As well over her husband as her love, And to be in mastery above him’.
Based on these findings alone I agree with the critics that believe Chaucer may have been a feminist. Feminists are all about female rights and an issue like rape is prominent in the feminist campaign for equal rights. Portrayed in the story, all the females band together to campaign against the knight for his barbaric act.
References: Chaucer, G. The Wife of Baths Tale. Derived from AUTOnline.
'I can see some aspects of femininity' the word is feminism. Look up the difference between the two words. Some good ideas here. You would benefit from reading Carter or one of the commentators.
ReplyDeleteHey Mike,
DeleteThanks for pointing that out. I looked up the definitions and femininity means the quality of being female whereas feminism means the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of equality of the sexes (Google Definitions). So yes I see the difference between the 2 words!
I also read a few bits from Carter’s article about Chaucer and I can see that although I have identified what I perceive to be aspects of feminism in the story. The article reveals that Chaucer may in fact NOT be a feminist but rather playing around with the idea of gender roles and if those roles were to be some what set free, no boundaries. ‘The motif central to the Wife’s tale (that a shape shifting hag becomes beautiful once she gets her own way) makes it more feasible that the Wife’s tale is centrally about liberation from gender roles’ (Carter, S. 2003).
Aspects of anti-feminism can also be seen in the story. His portrayal of women through the old hag, she manipulates the knight into being with her by giving him the answer he seeks, she wants her every desire and pleasure to be fulfilled by him and her frustration shows when he does not comply to her at first. ‘Acceptance of what is repulsive about women is inherent in the motif. Chaucer’s loathly lady directly relates to the Wife of Bath’s obsession with the dynamics of heterosexual commerce: the manipulation of power ratios by desire, pleasure, and frustration’ (Carter, S. 2003). The common belief is Feminists believe in being independent and not relying on a man for anything.
References :
Carter, S. (2003). Coupling The Beastly Bride And The Hunter Hunted: What Lied Behind in Chaucer’s Wife Of Bath’s Tale. In The Chaucer Review, Vol. 37, No. 4, 2003.
Google Dictionary
Interesting read Eden!
ReplyDeleteI agree with all that you have brought forward.
Oxford Dictionary (2014) defines feminism as 'the advocacy of women’s rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes', from this definition I find there are hints of feminism.
From what I gather, the wife of Bath tale was written in the 1400's, a time when women didn't have the same rights that men did, so although to me the hints of feminism aren't strong, I believe in those times even a tiny hint of women holding any power over a man, especially a king (As shown in your example of the Queen being the one with the final say in what would happen to Gawain the knight) could be seen as a VERY feminist story.
In the story, I find it is women who held the power over men. Though men made their own decisions, it is ultimately women at the core of everything, a woman tempted a knight (the virgin), a woman sent the knight on the journey (The queen), a woman gave the answer (the loathly lady) and a woman tricked him (loathly lady again, tricked him into marriage to her).
Something I noticed while watching the wife of Bath tale, was when the knight went around seeking the answer to what women most desire, all the men he asked gave their answers and then it would show that man giving his wife what it was he thought they desired (a place in society, money, fancy clothes, etc). The men seemed to be working hard to give their wives what they wanted, while the wives appeared to not really be concerned with what the men wanted. It, to me, painted a world where men worked hard for their wives as if they were superior, a little boy trying to please his mother.
In the prologue of the Wife of Bath's tale, all the men are portrayed as ugly brutes, but then again, so is the only lady in the prologue. However she holds a power over the men in her own way, she is able to get their attention without yelling or attracting snide remarks like the friar was getting.
So I agree that Chaucer was a strong feminist for his time, but wether it was intentional on his behalf or not remains a mystery.
It would be interesting to be able to have a conversation with him and how different the story would be if he had written it in the 2000's.
Great post Elsie!
DeleteI was just wondering if you saw this story in a different perspective would you still agree with the critics by claiming that Chaucer is a feminist?
I wanted to look at this situation in a different perspective. Yes, it may seem like Chaucer is a feminist but was he really?
I personally believe that Chaucer may have switched up the roles of male and female to start debates, discussions, and arguments just as we are doing in these blogs. This story was set in the 1400s where the typical story is where men were strong leaders and the ladies sat by or behind their men and were there to make love to their men, look after the house and children. So of course having a King grant his Queen permission for being in control of a Knights life people will immediately accuse him of being a feminist but in all honesty it shows that women are able to do some of the duties men can do. This switching up of roles has started conversations and I will not be surprised if critics from that era were upset about a female having the same power as a male, especially when a female is in control of another mans life! I think Chaucer just wanted a different story not the same old story with the hero or leader being a male but he just had a bit of fun with it, which I think is exciting and interesting!
What I also found interesting was the concept like feminism undoubtedly existed way before anyone had considered giving it a name or particular doctrine.
References:
Chaucer, G. (n.d.). The wife of bath's tale. Harvard University online. Retrieved March 30, 2014, fromhttp://www.courses.fas.harvard.edu/~chaucer/index.html 01.01.06
references:
ReplyDeleteHahn, T. (Ed.). (1995). The Wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnelle.In Sir
Gawain: Eleven Romances and Tales. Kalamazoo, Michigan:
Medieval Institute Publications
Oxford Dictionary. (2014). Feminism definition. Retrieved from:
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/feminism
Just a side comment, I've been thinking a whole lot about the feminism shown in this tale and perhaps it isn't so feminist after all. The story begins with a lady being sexually attacked. This shows a weakness and vulnerability in women, that though they may be cunning and smart, they are also weaker than men.
ReplyDeleteFurther along the story, we see that even though women are making decisions, the power is given to them by men, the queen was indeed in charge of the knight's fate, but this power was GIVEN to her by the king, her husband.
All the women also all women appear to be dependant on a man (save for the loathly lady) the queen and all the people are protected by the king and all the women I mentioned above who seem to have a hold over their husbands actually might be more helpless than I first believed. They are all married to a man who is the provider, none of these women seem to have a way to support themselves, it is the men who 'bring home the bacon'. In other words they are completely dependant.
Who knows, the truth lies in the grave with Chaucer.
Hey Grace! Great post. The fact you mentioned Chaucer switched up the roles, compared to how women and men are typically perceived in other stories during that time is interesting. According to Carter (2013) Chaucer was not just simply switching the roles of gender but also ‘upsetting the balance’. In the story he portrays the knight as a rapist attacking a girl. This goes against the typical portrayal of knights in other stories, respectful and usually loyal to one whom he loves. ‘Chaucer’s tale is more interested in gender power imbalance than in the qualities that make a good king’ (Carter, S. 2013). Definitely does give it a different spin on things compared to the usual cheesy stuff!
DeleteHey Elsie! Yes I too have changed my view on Chaucer being a feminist, there are many acts noted by Carter (2013) that support anti-feminist ideas. Facts such as the part where the Knight gives into the old hag’s demands and sleeps with her. He surrenders to her will when she is in her true form rather than the other ‘the ‘anti-feminist’ elements . . . constitute the force behind the tale’s challenge to male domination. When the knight surrenders to female ‘maistrye’, he surrenders not to the romanticized woman projected by male desire, but to the woman conceived in the pessimistic terms of anti-feminism.” (Carter, S. 2013).
However I’d like to say Chaucer was neither for nor against feminism. Just simply a writer exploring new ideas of writing about gender and sexuality ‘he is certainly making play with textuality, with subjectivity, and with the construction of ideas about sexuality’ (Carter, S. 2013).
References: Carter, S. (2003). Coupling The Beastly Bride And The Hunter Hunted: What Lies Behind in Chaucer’s Wife Of Bath’s Tale. In The Chaucer Review, Vol. 37, No. 4, 2003.
DeleteCite some variations in the Loathly Lady fabula across the three tales in your Reader. Focus on the conditions by which the lady is either beautiful or ugly, and the actions of the knight/king/"hero"...
ReplyDeleteThe Wife of Bath's Tale:
The knight is described as a lusty bachelor, and he is presented as an evil man when he rapes a woman. “By utter force, he took away her maidenhead.” (Chaucer, l. 888) When the lady asks for his love he is disgusted: “Should ever be so foully degraded!” (Chaucer, l. 1069), but he agrees to marry her anyways: “he must by necessity wed her”. (Chaucer, l. 1071)
The lady is described as an ugly creature. “There can no man imagine an uglier creature”. (Chaucer, l. 999) She also describes herself as such: “For though I am ugly, and old, and poor”. (Chaucer, l. 1063) The knight doesn’t appreciate her looks either: “Thou art so loathsome, and so old also”. (Chaucer, l. 1100)
Gawain gives in to the lady and lets her have control over him: “I put me in your wise governance”. (Chaucer, l. 1231) Because of his surrender the lady becomes beautiful: “As any lady, empress, or queen”. (Chaucer, l. 1246) The knight is also satisfied with the changes: “That she so was beautiful, and so young moreover”. (Chaucer, l. 1251)
King Arthur meets a really ugly woman:
The lady is also here described as some sort of beast: “She was the ugliest creature that a man ever saw”. (Hahn, 1995, p. 10) The text then goes on in detail describing her many ugly traits, such as “Her cheeks were as broad as a woman's hips” and “Like a barrel was she made”. (Hahn, 1995, p. 10) King Arthur, “I've never seen such an ugly woman”, and the lady herself, “that I am foul”, both agreed that she is ugly. (Hahn, 1995, p. 12)
Gawain in this text is presented as a noble knight when he agrees to marry the lady to save King Arthur: “To save your life, my lord. It is my duty” Gawain said, and King Arthur tells him how much he appreciates his sacrifice: “You have saved my life and reputation forever”. (Hahn, 1995, p. 13)
The knight in this text is presented as a good man who would do anything to honour and protect his king, while in ‘The Wife of Bath’s Tale’ he is a rapist being punished for his sins. There is a more thorough description in this text of how ugly the lady is, and also she doesn’t become beautiful in the end.
King Henry:
In this text there is also a very detailed description of how ugly the lady is, for example: “Her middle you could not span”, “Her teeth were like the tether stakes” and “Than a fiend that comes form hell”. (Steeleye Span, ‘King Henry’) She is also very barbaric, “For she's eaten up both skin and bone”, and she demands a lot from the king “More meat you give to me”, “And bring in a drink to me” and “To take me for your bride”. (Steeleye Span, ‘King Henry’) The king gives in to the lady like the knights did in the other texts, maybe even easier since he didn’t put up a fight. He didn’t do it as a sacrifice for someone else either. In this text the king gets his reward when the lady becomes beautiful, just like in ‘The Wife of Bath’s Tale’: “The fairest lady that ever was seen lay between him and the wall”. (Steeleye Span, ‘King Henry’) The lady considered him a noble knight since he did whatever she asked of him.
Reference list:
Chaucer, Geoffrey. The Wife of Bath’s Tale.
Extract: Hahn, T. (Ed.). (1995). The Wedding of Sir Gawainand Dame Ragnelle. In Sir Gawain: Eleven Romances and Tales. Kalamazoo, Michigan: Medieval Institute Publications.
Steeleye Span, ‘King Henry’.
In the context of Elizabethan and Jacobean sonnets, how can we define "conceits"?
ReplyDeleteAccording to Abrams (1993), the word or phrase ‘conceits’ refers to the poetic metaphors intertwined into verses as a vital key to revealing the deep-rooted meanings within poems. These tools can be used to express “satire, puns…and to display the poets own cunning with words” (p.113.) For instance in Sonnet XVII (line 2) Shakespeare applies conceits to express his infatuation to the natural beauty of a woman to the allure of nature itself. He inspires this concept by characterizing the woman’s warmth to be “more lovely and more temperate” (line 2) than that of a summers day. Shakespeare goes further then the summers day and declares that her beauty would be timeless and everlasting as the things he has compared her to which will inevitably fade away. “Nor shall death brag thou wander’st in his shade” (line 11) may be the perfect example of conceit – neither death nor her last days on this earth will ever take away her beauty, as long as “men can breathe, or eyes can see” (line 12 -13) she will forever remain more beautiful then a summers day
References:
Abrams, M.H. (1993). The Norton Anthopology of English Literature, 6th ed. New York: W.W. Norton and company
Shakespeare, Sonnet XVII
Hey Grace, wow such an interesting term 'conceits'.
DeleteOne key line I find in Abrams (1993) article 'conceits refers to the poetic metaphors intertwined into verses as a vital key to revealing the deep-rooted meanings within poems'. This ‘conceits’ Metaphysical poets were famous for because they used this technique to explore philosophical issues, the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality and existence. This is clearly seen in John Donne’s ‘The Flea’, through the metaphoric use of the insect, a flea as somewhat of a ‘love-bug’ a general term used by many today. Other conceits can be associated with the Flea one being an argument for want of sex on the narrators part‘a closer look at the poem reveals that this suitor is actually arguing a point to his lady: that the loss of innocence does not constitute a loss of honor’ (Abrams, M. H. 1993).
Specifically in the context of Elizabethan and Jacobean sonnets ‘conceits’ can be defined simply as figurative language used by these great poets to express common themes seen throughout all these poems. ‘Their figurative language (metaphors, similes, personification, hyperbole) is one of their delights. Several common themes, in addition to the difficulty of love (courtly love) include the mutability of life before the power of time and the relative permanence of art in time as compared with the impermanence of living things’ (Dr. Asarnow, “The Elizabethan (& Jacobean) Sonnet). Specifically the theme of courtly love can be seen in all the texts!
References:
Abrams, M.H. (1993). The Norton Anthology of English Literature, 6th ed. New York: W. W. Norton and Company, Inc., p. 1081.
Dr. Asarnow. (n.d). The Elizabethan (&Jacobean) Sonnet. Retrieved from http://faculty.up.edu/asarnow/324/Sonnets05.htm
This is a great discussion thread on Chaucer. I'm a bit suspicious of the feminist label for Chaucer. We cannot always take what a character says as indicative of what the writer believes.
ReplyDeleteWhat does Revard (1997) suggest about the relationship between language, sex, power and transgression in the English Renaissance?
ReplyDeleteRevard (1997) states how difficult it was for male poets to accept female poets. I think understanding this distinction shows Revard’s suggestion about the relationship between language, sex, power and transgression. At the time gender inequality was very high, women did not have the same opportunities as men did however the English Renaissance was the beginning of women expressing themselves through poetry. Women could write just as well as men, men just had to accept it ‘the acceptability of a woman pursuing learning and contesting in the domain of poetry that had been almost exclusively male’ (Revard, S. P. 1997). This can show the transgression committed on female poets part to go against the rule that “no females were allowed to write poetry” and the power exercised by male poets such as this ‘Mr. H’ (Revard, S. P. 1997) to prevent this, simply because of the differences in gender.
It is also important to note males were quite “big-headed” ‘For if a man and a woman compete in a literary contest and he “loses” as a man he also loses the right to dominate in other areas’ (Reavrd, S. P. 1997). They probably saw female poets as a threat but could never admit it.
Female poets were firstly judged on their appearance rather than there work ‘The issue of sex becomes so important a motif that the assessment of Philips as a poet takes second place’ (Revard, S. P. 1997).
References:
Revard, S.P. (1997)"Katherine Philips, Aphra Behn, and the Female Pindaric in Representing Women in Renaissance England, edited by Claude J. Summers and Ted-Larry Pebworth. Columbia: University of Missouri Press
Great post Eden. Revard (1997) I definitely agree with you in saying the English Renaissance was the start of women expressing themselves through poetry.
Delete"almost impossible in this era to be gender blind." The conflict between gender equality is undeniable - as you have said Eden, woman poets were not souly judged by the content of their poems but also their appearance. Women were not acknowledged as being just a poet - they were always recognized firstly as being female.
Some may think The Wife’s tale is about liberation from gender role restriction and it shows that Chaucer was interested in the gender role. This story did not potray the issues of kingship, which has been the main topic in most loathly lady tales. The tale can be seen as a battle of women versus the anti-feminism. When the knight was going past the woman at the pond, he approached her in a silent way and raped her with out struggle. This can reflect on how women were seen in that day, with no power but only their body and their virginity to serve for the men. The male character is now having to overcome many problems, including the consequences of his actions. The sad part is he is ripping away the innocence of these young woman. and when given a chance to rid himself of his problems he cant think of what it is woman actually desire most. Its as though he really does just women as a sex object rather then a human with feelings. In the end he overcame his problem, initially to resolve his own selfish needs. When he realises that beauty is more then just skin deep he then has a new understanding of women. When he needed help the only person to help him was an ugly old woman, whom he made a deal with. He would have to marry her find out his answer; to keep his life.
ReplyDeleteAccording to Cook (2010), the ugly woman in the tale had no power even when she told the correct answer to the young knight who saved his life. . When the knight gave her the sovereignty faithful, which then meant the knight could see through her skin and into her beautiful heart. In the end he is blinded by love and now sees this old lady as beautiful, even if her appearance doesn't change.
The feminism appears throughout the story and Chaucher clearly identifies the feminist ideas. Which in the end has us readers thinking deeply about the relationship between men and women, LOVE, power and sovereignty in this world.
References
Cook, A. (2010). Feminism in the Chaucer’s: The wife of bath. Retrieved from http://alisoncook.xomba.com/feminism_chaucers_wife_bath
Hahn (1995) argues that The Wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnelle have a different purpose than asserting feminism. He identifies that the plot presents how the unknown, the marvelous, or the threatening is put together with legitimate, normative, idealized chivalric society. Ragnelle is described by Hahn (1995) as a hag because of her lack of manners, beauty and deference. These are the same qualities she gains at the end. This transformation is both physically and symbolically, as she goes from ugly hag to beautiful lady, and from being a threat to a woman. She has a double role as both beauty and beast, creating both attraction and revulsion. Such characteristics are according to Hahn (1995) often attached to women in popular romance, and generally in western culture. The story also takes up the question what women wants most, which is typically a male interest. The story of Ragnelle unfolds in a way that clearly shows that the heroin is serving the interest of the male chivalric society, an attitude that the poem humorously celebrates. (Hahn, 1995) It can therefore be argued that the story instead of asserting feminism reinforces the notion that physical beauty is the most important, and that if a man lives with honor he gets his reward in form a beautiful woman who serves him, and helps him improve in life.
ReplyDeleteReference list:
Hahn, T. (Ed.). (1995). The Wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnelle. In Sir Gawain: Eleven Romances and Tales. Kalamazoo, Michigan: Medieval Institute Publications.